[00:00:00] Speaker A: So many of us have spent years trying to fix our relationship with food by focusing on what we do or don't eat. But what if being fully nourished has less to do with getting food exactly right and more to do with learning what your whole self actually needs?
In this conversation with guest co host Brandice Lardner, we talk about nourishment that goes far beyond calories, macros and meal plans.
We explore what it means to care for all aspects of your highly sensitive self body, mind, soul and spirit with grace, especially as an HSP who is easily depleted by pressure, shame and repeated attempts to fix everything all at once.
So if you're curious what it might look like to nourish the parts of yourself that food was never meant to care for, you'll find this episode full of freedom and hope.
Welcome to Grit and Grace, the podcast for highly sensitive Christian women. I'm your host Sherry Gregory. Are you tired of the overthinking, overwhelm and exhaustion that can come with being a highly sensitive person?
Are you ready to stop worrying that something's wrong with you and start understanding and nurturing yourself as as an hsp?
Together we'll build resilience, practice self compassion, set healthy boundaries, unlock your creativity and learn to embrace, not fight, your God given sensitivity.
Let's dig in.
Hey friend, I'm so glad you're here with me again today and I'm thrilled to welcome back my longtime friend and writing coaching client Brandice Lardner, whose debut book Fully Nourished A Grace Filled Approach to Ditch Diets and Find Peace with Food and your Body, released recently.
Now right before Brandice and I recorded this conversation, I had a sudden dental emergency. My decades old dental bridge fell out when I rushed to my dentist. I learned two things. One, the bridge could not simply be reset because I I needed yet another root Canal and 2 the total cost for the root canal and a new bridge would be four times my yearly dental insurance maximum. Needless to say, my inner critic started having a field day with my sticker shock.
So as you're about to hear, I asked Brandice's advice for those of us who struggle with regret, especially regret about the present day consequences of choices we made about our bodies a long time ago.
And this opened up a bigger conversation about shame and grace and what it means to truly care for the body God has given us. Brandice Lardner is a personal fitness trainer, nutrition coach, and a Jesus girl who loves to share how her relationship with God has brought her the peace with food she searched for in just about every diet.
Now Branda shares hope and encouragement on her blog, Grace Filled Plate, where she helps Christian women ditch the diet mindset and find food freedom through their relationship with Jesus Christ. Brandice shares mindful eating practices where healthy choices are made from a want to rather than a legalistic have to.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: The next question was about intermittent fasting, which has been quite popular for a while. It's often presented as the cure all. So the question was, how can a Christian woman discern whether it's a helpful practice for her or it's just diet culture and discussion?
[00:03:39] Speaker C: Guys, you know, I have spent some time looking into this. My husband does intermittent fasting and it's annoying because he doesn't even eat till like four. So you want to go do something and he's like not eating. But I have seen a real difference between the way it works for men versus women.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:03:54] Speaker C: Okay, I'm not convinced that our biology, our hormones are super supportive of intermittent fasting. Now we can reap the benefits of a practice without necessarily being all in all the time. The benefits of intermittent fasting is that it teaches your body to become what we would call metabolically flexible.
Many Americans are very sugar dependent, right? We eat a cereal for breakfast and a sandwich for lunch and pasta for dinner. It's lots of kind of sort of those constant carbohydrate streams coming in. And so we're, we have a lot of hunger. And when we have hunger, it's not super pleasant. Like, it could be like blood sugar highs and lows. Intermittent fasting works by depriving yourself of food or carbohydrates so that your body is forced to access its stored fuel, body fat for one, which is why it's been really, really popular. However, we can take that information that we've learned about a more moderate diet and not eating all day all the time, and apply that to our eating by having a more balanced meal. Like, make sure that you've got some, like, carbohydrates are fine, some protein, some fat, some kind of produce in your meals right there. You're already balancing your blood sugar and not creating this big high and low that we often get when we're just going from carb snack to carb snack. Also, be aware of grazing.
There are certain people who love eating small meals throughout the day. And I say go for it. Like, if that's how your body feels, best do that. But we don't want to get into the habit of picking all day because that never gives our body A break from external fuel coming in where it needs to access its own reserves. And it's really a skill of biology to be able to break down that body fat and use it for fuel. And so when you're able to do that, not be snacking all the time or have more balanced meals, you'll notice that your hunger sensation is little a a lot more pleasant, it's a lot less bossy, and you can occasionally miss a meal and not feel terrible. If you want to do intermittent fasting, I would encourage you to pick a day or two a week where you can do it so that your body doesn't get too many signals of that starvation. Especially women who've been on a lot of diets. I don't know if I can get behind it. It can feel like an easy button until some of the, you know, hormonal shifts can happen and things change a little bit. And of course, there will be a bunch of experts who disagree, but that's one of those things. Again, we can pray about it, see where God's leading us. And if the Lord is leading you too fast specifically, then, you know, I will often have women in our community do what I call sowing seeds of self control. And this is a small fast. But for us, it's important. Just like a social media fast could be really uncomfortable, and that could cause you to seek the Lord more than denying yourself some type of sustenance. And so having more of a mindset of making the changes for the Lord through his strength and for his glory, not perfectly because you're gonna fail, but having that same mindset of doing it for him can kind of cue the same mindset of fasting. It's not the same as a biblical fast that has a lot of, you know, history, the. But if you hesitate to fast, that is really a way to approach it that gives us peace.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: I love how you're bringing in other aspects of our lives so that it's not just about food. It's an integrated approach.
So the next question I have here from a sensitive and strong community cafe member is, well, this just feels so personal. As women age, our metabolism changes. So what are some realistic, sustainable shifts a woman can make without falling into deprivation or despair?
[00:07:59] Speaker C: Oh, I know it's hard. Our aging bodies, it's hard. You know, I have to laugh because it was like, man, I just finally, you know, got comfortable in my body with body image, and then I aged. Oh, my goodness. It's so rude.
And I think it is further shines a light on really the way that the world looks at things so, so differently than God. I mean, where age and wisdom are celebrated. And so just starting with that kind of mindset of like, growing is good, right? And part of that is the part of aging. And with that, things do change, but it doesn't mean it's bad, it's different.
And so the first thing is to detach yourself from the past. Like, it's great. I love that you could eat whatever you wanted when you were 18. I mean, that's amazing.
But things are different now. But that's all right. We don't have to hang on to it. You're a different person now with like so many great revelations about yourself. And you live a different life now, right? You're not doing college sports. So that's going to shift things. Or metabolic rate shifts because we lose a little muscle mass because we're working at a desk. Good, bad? No, just facts. And when we can detach from these judgments about things and be like, oh, that was awful, or this is good, then we can start to think a little more clearly, right? Because when we're naming things and calling them out for, you know, the bad side, we miss the good side too. Would you go back to being 20 again?
[00:09:33] Speaker B: There's no amount of money you could pay me. Nope, nope, nope.
[00:09:36] Speaker C: I pity, I pity 20 year olds. I just pray for you that the Lord will strengthen you and you'll learn these lessons fast, right?
And so understanding that, right? Everything comes as a package.
And then bringing on a real nurturing mindset of like, where is my body now? Not what do I have to restrict? Not listen, we get beat up enough in the world. You need to be on your own side. And so what is it that I can do that feels good for me now? And go in with a curious mindset. There are certain foods, like some one person's going to feel great eating vegetarian with lots of carbohydrates. Another person is going to feel great eating a little more protein or anywhere in between. And it doesn't matter what it is, what matters is what works for you.
So really come in with a fresh and curious mindset and start to say, like, okay, what foods give me energy to live out the calling God has on my life now, chances are, here's a little secret. It's probably going to be like real food, which is the thing we like, work hard to make ourselves want to do. But when we look at it with introspection and permission, it gets a little bit easier. Like no one is Listening to their body saying, you know what? I think I'm going to eat all the icing on that cake. No, it's like, that's the diet mindset. I've done it before. It's horrible. It's not good.
And so that will allow you to find where strength is. Now, science helps. Science does help. There's information about protein consumption is really important as we age. I'm not talking massive amounts of protein, but if there's not protein on your plate consistently, then we kind of want to pay attention to that. Right? We just try to have a showing of some sort of protein. I'm vegetarian, so sometimes that's beans, sometimes it's eggs. You know, for you, it could be meat and fish, and we all know what protein is. And then also being aware of the importance of having those micronutrients, like vegetables and produce, that are going to help you age well. Right? This goes from restriction about what you shouldn't do and how you need to shrink yourself or beat yourself up to, wow, how do I craft nourishment for this body God has given me? We can end up doing the same thing, but because it's a different mindset, it's really, really helpful. And, you know, knowing that movement is really, really good.
Beating yourself up, like your joints and stuff, not the best, right? If you have a passion for marathons, please do it. But you do not need to start running marathons. You don't need to go to CrossFit. You just need to move your body in a way that you can be consistent. And those simple habits, getting some protein, getting in your veggies, and getting some strength training or some walking that's going to strengthen your bones will be really the baseline that you can build upon. And knowing that with a gentle mindset can be really, really helpful moving forward. There is so much hope when you let go of the attachment to what we used to be and begin to nurture yourself rather than punish yourself for not being what you think you should.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: I do feel fortunate somehow. I have had the mindset of just being so grateful to my body for all that it's gone through. And I know women, and my husband especially, you know, for him, this aging process is just about doing him in because his body doesn't do what he's used to it doing. And I'm like, I don't know how. It must just be some extra measure of grace where I'm able to be like, after all this body has gone through and after all I put it through, the Desire to be gentle and kind. It's amazing every time I do something good for myself, how much I want to keep doing these good things for myself. Like it's, it is a self perpetuating cycle.
[00:13:23] Speaker C: Yeah, the framing is so good.
[00:13:24] Speaker B: Moving in a completely different direction. I have a question for you that already shared with you. So you know where it comes from.
How do we deal with these regrets that we can have? Either regrets about things we just didn't know about. Like I didn't know dental avoidance was a thing. I just thought I was a horrible, irresponsible person.
And now I look back and I'm like, oh, if I had known, if
[00:13:47] Speaker A: my dentist had known.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: But none of us knew. Like none of us knew back when I was a teenager, in my early 20s when I, when I lost the tooth that involved the bridge, we just didn't know that was a thing.
And on top of it, I then have the regret of knowing that my eating disorder really did a number of my teeth when I was a teenager and in my early 20s and certainly played a part in the deterioration of my teeth. So that now I've got this many, many thousands of dollars of repair and I feel so badly that this is where our family's money is going.
And yet I don't want to beat myself up. I want to have the self compassion. So for, for those of us who are struggling with something that is truly regrettable, like it's legit, it's real. This is not just the inner critic talking, right? This is, this is. Oh no. What in terms of dealing with these kinds of regrets, both for what we didn't know and for what we really did know better. But we still made some, some choices that have had a long term impact.
[00:14:48] Speaker C: I can relate to that. I think regret is probably the most uncomfortable emotion for me. Like, and I don't know if that's universal. Like shame is up there as well. But regret is awful.
It's like a gut punch of forehead slap. Like it's everything all at once. And so I can totally relate to that. And I think probably every human being on the earth, right, has these regrets. And the enemy knows how much they can completely disable us from moving forward. Like it is so heavy and so burdensome and it can really be hard to navigate. And just understanding that that voice, even if it's of reasonable nature, you know, can be exaggerated by the enemy to make us feel shame and regret and to really camp out on the fact that God is sovereign. Oh, he just time. I just Cannot wait to figure out how he sees time because he sees it like a blanket, right? He sees it all at once. And so right now he knows what's going to happen in the future as much as he's present in the past, right? He was there and he is the only one who knows what's going to happen. And for us to bear the burden, that we should have any clue how the future is going to work out is unfair to us.
And for us to feel like it didn't work out the way it should could be a little area where we could grow in our faith, right? God knew God is going to grow it. God's going to provide. If it's a health issue, he's going to see me through, but he has a purpose for me in that. But we don't have the big picture. So I think it comes back to really trusting God, right? He allows these things in our lives because he has that eternal perspective, really casting that care upon him because he cares for us. We were never meant to carry that burden on our own. And then of course, putting on those friend goggles we talked about previously and treating ourselves like. Like we would a friend, right? And some people may have others in their lives who add to the condemnation, who make them feel worse and really blocking out any other voice than God's, right? When people are unkind or they continue to heap on that regret and shame, it's a problem that they have in their hearts and minds and it has nothing to do with us. So I think when I now, you know, and getting close to 50 and things in my body catch up later, I just use it as a reminder that, you know, God is in control.
He's going to use everything in my life for my good and his glory and to kind of be like, okay, what are you going to do with this God? Like, I'm showing up and I'm here.
How is this going to be used to praise you? And, and it's harder, right, than it, than it is just to say it, of course. But I believe when we do that, then our eyes are open to see those opportunities where he's going to like, use it. So now we can go in and be like, okay, this stinks. This is like a big old pile of poo. I hate it. But where, where are you leading me in this? Right? How are you going to provide financially? How am I going to be able to share this story with other people?
How I, the prodigal was dirty and filled with shame and regret, and yet you ran to me and put the best coat on me. And it's just a day to day example that we have in this world. How God's love and care are just never ending, never stopping, unconditional. Wrap us up with warmth. And honestly, that's the message that people need to hear.
[00:18:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:40] Speaker C: God is bigger than your guilt and your shame. God is going to meet you wherever you are. And if we don't go through that funk, we tell people about it. So I don't know, does that speak at all to you, Sherry, or is that align at all with what God's doing for you?
[00:18:54] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness.
[00:18:54] Speaker C: I got.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: I was tearing up as you're talking about the prodigal because the idea of God already watching for me to be showing up with the. With this fallen out bridge in my hand and the idea that he'd be running towards me to be part of the solution and already having a solution in mind, even though I don't know what it is. And like the prodigal, I'm like, okay, hey, you know, just make me one of your servants. You know, just. Just if you could figure out the tiniest little way that I can survive this. And the full embrace is just a beautiful.
My mind is blown just even trying to imagine that. So thank you. That is incredibly powerful. Incredibly powerful.
[00:19:36] Speaker C: We need those reminders over and over.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: Yes, we do. Yes, we do.
[00:19:42] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: Well, for the HSP woman who feels too broken or too behind to even try again with food or her body, what would you want her to hear right now? And then when she's at a point
[00:19:57] Speaker A: where she's ready, what might be a
[00:19:59] Speaker B: gentle place for her to begin again?
[00:20:02] Speaker C: Well, I love the work that you're doing here, Sherry. And it changed my life as I realized, like, I'm not wired like, like a lot of my friends. And it's actually a superpower. Right? The things that we.
That make us different make us usable because that's really what God has put in us. And in the same way that you may approach a concert different than your friends or a movie.
When I found out I was pregnant, I told my husband, I'm never going to astro skate. Just so you know, like, I was just found out I was pregnant. This is the skating rink with like the music and like the. The lights going, no way, Jose. That's like off limits. Never. And so we.
The more we step into the knowledge of who God made us to be, the more we can protect that so that we can be used. Because otherwise I'm dried up on the floor, crying, you know, I, I need that care.
And so to think that in eating it would be any different is also a little unfair to yourself. That you could go to the store and grab any book and think that, you know, this language of like good and bad foods or should or shouldn't isn't going to weigh heavily on you. That's something we need to really know that we need gentleness, we need autonomy, as we talked about the ability to make decisions that jive with us. So give yourself permission to put a hard stop in front of you before you say yes to any dietary or eating change and really think about what matters most to you. What kind of things do you like to eat? Do you like soups and salads or do you like really rich Mac and cheese? I like.
It's all good. Like the Lord wired you to be a certain way. And so we need to know what it is that nourishes us physically and emotionally. Because food can be an emotional nourishment as it's part of self care. And really just spend some time journaling, thinking about what's worked for you in the past, what hasn't worked. If you were to eat an ideal way, not the diet way, like no diet talk, what would it look like? Maybe you'd eat when you're hungry and then stop when you're full. Maybe you'd eat a little bit of this and some of that, or maybe you like bigger portions of lighter food.
Play around with it and really have fun and imagine what would work best for you. And then your current knowledge of yourself that's going to change over time, will become the gatekeeper of what you allow into your life. So we talked about making these small sustainable changes. Let's start with something that appeals to you, that when you do it, it's going to make you feel better.
Like when I was personal training, you know, people would think a workout was good if they were like smashed afterwards. It's like, no, no, that's not good. Right? We don't want to completely overwhelm our bodies. We just want to give it enough to feedback for the muscles to grow to be a little bit stronger, a little more balanced, that kind of thing. And the same thing with eating, we don't need to completely reinvent the wheel. You just need to nourish yourself a little bit better than maybe you did yesterday. So the acknowledgement that the diet system is broken for everyone, but it's even more broken for you will hopefully give you the permission to consider what might actually work. And I guarantee there are some ways to improve your eating that would be really enjoyable for you. That would be kind of fun.
Lots of ladies love the idea of eating when they're hungry and stopping when they're full.
Learning new dishes that might be a little bit healthier than what they're eating now, or experimenting with different cuisines. Whatever fuels you to make those better choices. We want to connect to that and camp out on that. And then one of the most powerful tools I use is called an IdeaVault, because we get all this information coming at us all the time. I should do this, I should do that. I want to go here. Like, new workout class, orange theory, crossfit walking. It's so maddening. And so I keep a list and have the ladies in my program keep a list. That's truly an idea vault. Anytime you get something that pops into your mind that you think you should do, it goes in the idea vault. Jot it down. Could be a notebook, piece of paper, and a book. Like, whatever is convenient for you and let it live there. Just let it have its space there. And then when it's time for you to introduce a new change or you're feeling like you're ready to step it up a little bit, then you can go over that list and do like we spoke about before, Kind of pick the ones that work for you and really leave the. Left the rest aside. And this works so well in many areas of life, right? Even with, like, books I want to read. Like, we could have a list of, like, I should read all these books. So maybe you don't want to, or maybe you don't have the time, but when we get it out of our head and onto paper, that really, really helps. And so that will allow you to design a way of eating that honors your preferences and, like, how God made you without the pressure and without that tight wire feeling of going off and on. You're truly navigating this as an individual because he created you as such. And I think it's fun. It's really, really fun. We can take the joy back in our eating.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: Oh, this just sounds so good. And what I'm hearing you say is, for the HSP woman who feels broken, what you're saying is we aren't the ones who are broken. It's diet culture that's broken. It's these old messages that we've gotten that are broken. And the fact that they didn't work for us is about them and not about us. And there's just so so much hope in that.
Love this idea of the idea vault because so many of my HSP women
[00:25:56] Speaker A: that I work with or coach, everything
[00:25:57] Speaker B: is self help and improvement and guru chasing and, and because we want so badly to learn and grow, one of the highest things that we score in is really high in conscientiousness. And so, you know, we're always learning, we're always growing. And I love this buffer you're creating. Like, okay, you can put the new knowledge there, but let's not try to live it all at once and really confuse ourselves rather than giving it that, that opportunity to try a little bit and see how it works. So that's just marvelous.
[00:26:27] Speaker C: Yeah, and that's the scientific approach. Like, a really good doctor will not throw a bunch of changes on you unless you really need it. But we're gonna, like, let's modify this and give it a little bit of time and see how it works. But if you try to change a bunch of things, you're just gonna call them all bad because you can't do it and it doesn't work. But yeah, that introspection that you have is going to be a gift as you allow yourself to connect with it.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: Oh, so good. All right, well, my last question for you.
What does being fully nourished feel like? Like, how will a woman know that she's on this path, even if the progress seems like it's going at a slow pace?
[00:27:06] Speaker C: So when I think of being fully nourished and the way that those words just like, soothe my soul is the idea about us being nourished in every area of our lives. We're spirit, soul and body. And when we think about food, we often think about, like, calories and macros and vitamins and minerals. But food also is nourishing to us emotionally in a healthy way. Not emotional eating, but nourishing to us in emotional way as we can really experience God's provision in our lives. Food is how we can connect with other people through fellowship. It's also a way that we care for ourselves in that line between overeating or undereating and really nourishing ourselves. And then when we are not eating for stress or comfort or anxiety or all the things that get mixed up in our eating, then we're able to meet our emotional needs as such. And that could be through, you know, our own self talk, through our connections with other people and with the Lord. Right. And then physical, emotional, and then spiritual. Our spiritual beings, when they're fully nourished, are no longer grasping for Food as often, old habits die hard, but are no longer grasping for food to fill those gaps and spaces that were intended to be filled by the Lord. And so how we know we're moving more toward this is where our appetites become more clear.
We can go, oh, that's physical hunger, all right, I need some food. Or other times we may say, oh, I'm a little emotionally parched, like I've been running ragged, or I haven't had that quiet time, or I haven't done that self care that I need. And then we meet the emotional need there. And then of course, the spiritual peace when we're lacking purpose or we're not praying throughout our day or staying connected to the Lord. It just something could feel a little bit off. So knowing that, you know, you're more than a body when it comes to food can be really, really helpful. And the beauty is you don't have to get it all perfect.
As you work on each area, it flows into the rest. Right when we may be tired of talking about food. I got there, I don't want to change my food. I don't want to think about food anym over it. And so I could work on my spiritual nourishment or my emotional nourishment and it's going to spill over into the food. And the same way as we look at our relationship with food and begin to frame it in a proper way and get rid of all or nothing thinking and work on our body, which is going to help us like we're going to grow in our relationship with the Lord. We're going to become more emotionally fluent. And so that's really where I see it and how we know if we're moving toward it. It's subtle, right? It's not this dramatic moment. But you'll notice that those moments where you turn to food, they're not quite as icky or you recover from them more quickly. Or the moments where we're down in the dumps and we just feel disconnected or we're stuck in anxiety, those times become shorter and they're less often. And progress really is sort of this, you know, rocky but upward trends where things get a little bit better over time and then we don't always know exactly what changed because of that. Tri unity, where we have so many parts and pieces that are playing off of each other. It's not a destination, it's truly growing.
The more we learn about ourselves, the more we learn about God or we, you know, learned about our emotional health, the changes can continue to be made not to be burdensome, but to know that there's always hope for more peace and more joy and more contentment. And looking at it as more than food.
Oh that in itself will free you up a lot. To find that fully nourished mindset, I
[00:31:16] Speaker B: want to take a moment to tell
[00:31:17] Speaker A: you a bit more about Brandes new book Fully Nourished because it really captures
[00:31:22] Speaker B: the heart of what we've been talking about today.
[00:31:25] Speaker A: Fully Nourished is for Christian women who are tired of obsessing over food weight and appearance and who long for a Christ centered way to care for their bodies without shame.
Now, even though we know we are fearfully and wonderfully made, many of us have spent years at war with our bodies, tracking calories, cutting food groups, jumping on the latest health trend and wondering why none of it brings lasting peace.
With so much conflicting advice, weight lost and regained and self blame when we fall short, we rarely get to the heart of the matter why food became such a struggle in the first place, or why our sense of worth became tangled up in what we eat and how we look. We focus on fixing the outside, hoping it will change how we feel inside. When true, lasting freedom comes from the inside out.
In Fully Nourished, Brandes invites you to step off the exhausting treadmill of dieting and into the freedom Jesus offers. Drawing from biblical truth, sound nutrition and habit building science, she gently shows you how to nourish your body without shame, renew your mind with grace, and build habits that support your health, your peace and your calling. This isn't about getting it perfect, it's about finally being free.
You'll find links to learn more about Fully Nourished in the show notes and I can't recommend it highly enough, especially for highly sensitive Christian women. Brandice also offers a free seven lesson email series called Faith is Greater Than Food, which I'll link in the show notes. You can learn more about Brandice and her
[email protected] and connect with her on Facebook.
Thank you for listening to Grit and Grace, the podcast for highly sensitive Christian Women. I hope this episode leaves you feeling encouraged, equipped to thrive, and invited to care for your whole self with grace.
Be sure to follow in your favorite podcast app and share this episode with a friend.
Now, if you're brand new to the whole HSP concept, come take the Am I a Highly Sensitive Person Quiz. You'll find that link in the show notes.
And remember, God created you sensitive. In Christ you are always strong.
Hey, if today's conversation has you longing for a gentle place to keep exploring what it means to feel safe and seen and supported. As a highly sensitive Christian woman, I would love to invite you into the Sensitive and Strong Community Cafe.
During the month of May. We'll be focusing on embodied safety, what it means to experience God's care not just as an abstract idea, but in our actual bodies, in our emotions, in our self talk, and in our relationships. You can learn more about the Sensitive and Strong community
[email protected] cafe that's C-H-E-R-I G-R-E-G-O-R-Y.com C-A-F-E comm and the link is in the show notes.
